No one likes strikes outside of pitchers, would you have felt better if the people showing up for their flights on Saturday were flown by replacement workers that may have not been trained on that metal?
If their had been a problem, and it came out that Spirit locked out it's pilots and replaced them by others that apparently didn't have the seniority or the necessary hours to have full time routes, would you feel different.
I can't repeat this enough, I hate strikes and I'm not backing one side or the other, but it's becoming quite apparent that the Union and Spirit had stopped making progress on a new contract and unless offered mediation, something was going to happen.
Pilots moved first, so we call them greedy bastards without knowing the facts. A couple months ago, we called Spirit greedy bastards for implementing carry on luggage fees, because that increase wasn't transparent and was affecting our bottom line when shopping for tickets.
The truth will come out and then we can see the winners and losers and better assign blame.
Doctors and lawyers don't work in unions, although in Canada nurses do.
And while a doctor or lawyer is free to seek/accept clients that they want, the fees they charge are federally regulated, especially procedures covered by the gov't (OHIP). If a doctor feels he'll have a better practice elsewhere he's free to move, no one stops him, schedules him...etc He controls that part of his career. Pilots don't get this option. They're told where to fly and when to be there regardless of any comittments they may have at home.
And btw, no one attacked you. I asked if you knew the facts, which obviously none of us do.
And never said it was OK either, I said I understood it.
And everybody that takes a job knowing the starting salary eventually wants a raise, that's a no brainer. I know I did!
Yeah, it does. And the only time they have any say in it is when they're negotiating a new contract
They're not whining, they're in contract negotiations that have stalled with an employer that said they'll work without them.
Again, who knows if they want more, maybe they went on strike to keep from getting less?
Many do
But apparently he puts on his uniform, gets admired by kids, gets to bang hot flight attendants and hold out his hand and get the $100,000 day one.
There's so much that goes into the job that we'll never know about, and the stress? Are you kidding me?
14K a year and 58 people died, should we be happy she wasn't a greedy bitch? And when the inevitable stupid comment comes, my ex-wife lost a very dear friend on that flight, so I got to see that impact first hand
I need to get some sleep, but I want to point out one more thing. As some of you are aware, American Airlines is in negotiations with 3 of it's unions, including the pilots. Now as much as I abhor strikes, it beats "Chaos" (no not the bad guys from get Smart). What the AA flight crews were going to do is randomly pick flights and not show up, basically the entire crew calls in sick. Then when AA scrambles to replace them, another crew goes to down to CBA fever. When they get replaced, another.....and so on
That to me is worse. You go on strike or get locked out, you stomp your feet for a few days, then go back to work and back to the table. Spirit was hurt by the strike and I wouldn't be surprised if the pilots come back only to be locked out now.
This is a worthy topic and I think we'll all learn a little something, I was reading that this is the first strike by pilots since 2005.
And for those that think this was "sprung by surprise" likes I says, this doesn't happen because the union president woke up in a bad mood. The pilots told Spirit on May 15th a strike was possible. And the date of the strike coincided with the end of the 30 day cooling off period as mandated by the NMB (National Mediation Board).
Now I want the strike to end and the pilots and Spirit back at the table and I really hope that AA makes peace with the two unions it has with no contract!
Ugh fucking unions and contracts.
Trying to find some specifics about what's so unappealing to the pilots that they're still without a contract.
This may be BS, and after all the back and forth on the AA board on Flyer talk you learn that both sides can bring the rhetoric. But like I said earlier, don't assume a strike is about getting more, sometimes is to prevent getting less... again this may be BS, so take it with a grain of salt.
If that's true, those are huge concessions and have nothing to do with being as some have called them "greedy motherfuckers"Keep in mind that while most of the airlines lost a lot of money, tiny Spirit made $107 million last year. What is not said is that the company wants to reduce the pay rates two ways. First they want to take the current rates and cut them. Next they want to only grant a year of service if one flies at least 850 hours per year (reserve pilots would never advance). So, they want to take the total number of hours a pilot has flown since being employed at Spirit, divide it by 850 and come up with a new longevity credit. Everyone would get a massive pay cut. Add to that a huge cut in the 401(k) match, dessimation of the health insurance, elimination of 4 days off between trips (they do fly into some dangerous airports and need to be rested), and it's a bit more than a desire to get sympathy. They just want a fair contract!
Spirit was canceling flights ahead of the strike
http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...+In+the+Sky%29
Spirit Airlines has started cancelling some flights ahead of a threatened pilots strike, a move that comes just a day after the carrier said it planned to keep flying through a labor disruption.
RELATED: Spirit Airlines: We'll keep flying if pilots strike
The Associated Press says a Thursday check by the news agency "showed that Spirit is not selling tickets for any flights on Saturday or Sunday. A reservations agent told the AP that all weekend flights out of its main hub at Fort Lauderdale had been 'suspended.' Pilots have seen no sign of preparations to keep flying, and many management pilots have promised not to cross the picket line, (Sean Creed, a Spirit captain and the head of the Air Line Pilots Association unit there), said."
AP adds "negotiations were being conducted in Washington and directed by the National Mediation Board. If there's no deal, pilots could strike as early as 12:01 a.m. ET Saturday. Presidents can halt airline strikes, but that was considered unlikely because of Spirit's small size. It runs roughly 150 flights per day, compared to 6,200 for Delta Air Lines, the world's largest carrier."
Back in March when things were getting ugly between AA and it's unions, I made the following two posts on FlyerTalk, I also post there as Klockman
After receiving a few kudos I addedWhile I can sympathize a bit with both sides, I too work in a Union and we just reached a tentative agreement and after 6 months negotiating, including conciliation, we got nothing. We gave up nothing, that's it, that's all, short 2 year contract and let's take a look at where the economy/business stand at that point. No one likes it, but it'll get ratified because sometimes you need to get past the bickering and sense of entitlement to do what's right.
If the AA FA strike while demanding raises in this economy, I will be disappointed as well I would question giving business to AA should they lock them out.
And before I'm asked I guess I'll answer the obvious question and that's Yes, as a CBA member in another union, I would not fly with replacement workers nor cross any picket lines.
So please, I ask you that while it's fashionable to jump on unions as encouraging laziness and high wages, there are many of us simply wanting the chance to keep working.Let me expand a bit, after several months of negotiating and getting nowhere, my employer on February 9th announced massive job cuts while taking the negotiations to conciliation.
I figured the two issues were related and the layoff notice was a shot accross the bow telling our Union executive that they weren't playing, there was nothing to be gained and if laying off this high of a number didn't allow some cost certainty, the next step was a lockout.
Now despite 9 years service, if these layoffs go ahead anyways I'll feel pretty dumb because I've been trying to drum up support for a new CBA, any new CBA. I had people convinced that we may need to take pay cuts and if the senior CBA members were willing to take pay cuts, I was willing to never vote to ratify a CBA that changes the pension language or formula. Basically i was saying, you help protect me by taking a little less and I'll help ensure your retirement.
Well this idea spread like wildfire, and shortly thereafter, the company and union were holding hands announcing a new CBA would be sent to the members and that the exceutive was recommending we ratify it.
So, what's next? Well I hope taking the layoffs off the table to start as we've agreed to no wage increases for two years, but I may be wrong.
So what does this have to do with the AA dispute? Not much other than if there's a difference of opinion as to what's an acceptable CBA in these hard times, sign a status quo CBA, make it short (like ours 2 years, to be opened by either party after 18 months) and try and turn the business around.
I hope anyways
If the stuff I've read about what Spirit is asking their unions for is correct, then it definitely isn't greed driving this strike by the pilots, and while American's have 401K, the same thing would apply in Canada if we allowed our pension formulas or defined company contributions to be altered.
But I wanted to post the Flyer Talk stuff to show I'm not a Union shill, and I can feel both sides
No matter how you look at it.... this starts and ends with greedy motherfuckers whether they are wearing pilots wings.... or sitting in their offices wearing their 5k suits.
So someone's to blame. Either pilots or company.
Who is NOT to blame are all the people that get screwed. Thats the only thing that gets me fired up.
Note: the keyboard on this new phone keeps changing some of words Damn
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...0/05/19/02.xml
Spirit Warns Of Permanent Shutdown
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By Andrew Compart
Spirit Airlines is warning employees that the airline might have to “shut down operations permanently” if its pilots union goes on strike, as it is threatening to do as early as June 12, adding more tension to what could become a high-stakes showdown.
In a letter dated May 12 and sent to the president of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) as part of the airline's federally required notice of pending mass layoffs — and a similar New Jersey state requirement — the Florida-based low-cost carrier said it remains committed to reaching an agreement. Spirit said it is seeking a deal that will ensure “long-term stability and growth for the company” and “rewarding careers for our pilots.”
Spirit, however, warned that a strike could have severe consequences.
“If ALPA strikes, we cannot predict how long ALPA will be on strike, but we can foresee that a strike could force us to shut down operations permanently,” the airline said. “Accordingly, the first day that ALPA goes out on strike could possibly be the last day of employment with Spirit for our pilots in Atlantic City and systemwide.”
Spirit also has filed federally required notices to a Florida government agency warning it could lay off as many as 1,583 employees in the state (DAILY, May 18). The low-cost carrier has about 2,300 employees nationwide, including about 500 pilots.
Spirit and its pilots have been trying to negotiate a new contract for more than three years, including more than six months in mediation, but without much progress. After the union rejected a National Mediation Board offer for binding arbitration, the board on May 12 started the 30-day cooling-off period for the union and the airline, after which the pilots will have the legal eligibility to strike.
Ill will has been building between the pilots and management.
In 2008, management and the union fought over sick-leave usage (DAILY, Aug. 18, 2008), and the union later filed a lawsuit that accused management of repeatedly violating the contract (DAILY, Sept. 8, 2008). The judge dismissed the lawsuit without prejudice last June. But a year ago, union members voted nearly unanimously to authorize a strike once it became legal to conduct one (DAILY, May 20, 2009).
Spirit considers ultra-low fares to be its brand, using ancillary revenue and industry-leading low unit costs to help fuel its profits. But the leader of the Spirit union, Sean Creed, says pilots want the new contract to bring them closer to parity with pay at carriers such as JetBlue and AirTran, which he says is 20% to 30% higher.
Creed says the primary sticking points now are over pay and scheduling, including proposals to increase the maximum flying hours and reduce vacation time. On May 7, Creed vowed that “should the cooling-off period end without a fair agreement, make no mistake, this pilot group will strike.”
So it would appear both sides can take some blame, I don't agree with a 20% raise at all. But Spirit sent their letter 7 days into a cooling off period and 3 days after the Union said they'd walk. Both sides are playing poker.
I'm going with both, pilots have a right to be pissed, 3 years no contract then being offered one which changes the language on service and basically assures no one can ever become a highly compensated pilot. And the pilots are on crack if they want 20-30%, but I suspect that number was thrown out for public consumption and to win the propaganda war.
My gut tells me this will be a short strike and they'll be back at the table next week, both sides will blame the other and claim to be the good guys
As for people getting screwed, that sucks, they're getting from both ends
Well I hope they get it figured soon. I need to book my September flight !
guess some of the Spirit Pilots don't like working for $35,000 year
The "innocent people"who didn't know that Spirit pilots were walking on Saurday at 12:01am weren't paying much attention to whats going on in the world.Shit I saw it on the news while I was in Medellin.Of course I already knew before I went to Colombia about the strike and planned my trip accordingly.
Hearing about unions make my blood boil. Wasn't the original purpose of unions to protect those with little pay? Now they have unions for sports who are already millionaires. Working in a small business I am actually envious of city workers.. getting pensions after like 25 years.. I don't get that. Guaranteed raises.. WTF is that? In this shitty economy? We get pay freezes. Can't be fired even if you are a dumbass. We can only be so lucky. I think unions should be made illegal. Just recently in NY, they removed "rubber rooms" from teacher contracts because of public outrage. I think if you see the perks in some union contracts you would be outraged too.
I am big believer in unionization. Unless you want to argue, "Every man for himself, and God against all."
While one employee's chain can be yanked any time, try that if yanking one man's chain means waking up a thousand, ten thousand, a hundred thousand. There needs to be a counterweight to big business and that counterweight are unions.
Of course, the state of the unions in this Union (sic!!) of ours is abysmal.
P.S.: And wait until you see some of the perks in those CEO contracts. That should really get you fired up!
Last edited by papi_sosua; 06-14-2010 at 05:06 PM. Reason: P.S. added.
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