12/2007 - Spirit Airlines updates and deals

[ROVER]

First step is recognizing that there is a PROBLEM.
Plenty of time later to point fingers.
This sense of Entitlement has to stop, thats the next step, IMO.

I love that Bush word "ENTITLEMENT" Making it sound like you want something for nothing.

How the hell is it an something for nothing when I and everyone else pays a 6.2% social security tax every paycheck of their lives and their employer makes a 6.2% matching contribution.

Every paycheck from the very first week you work to the last week of your working life. So if you work 50 years at the combined 12.4% total contribution that's a 620% contribution of your average life yearly salary and with it being invested in T bills and compounding it should be worth no less than 1000% at minimum.

If your average life pay was $30,000 then you should have $300,000. Now if at age 62 you draw $15,000/year you have outright capital for 20 years and if it is invested in T bills you should have enough for another 5 years to sustain you until you are 87. Some make it further some make it less ...it evens out and sound about right to me.

I don't have a Phd in math but when you look at the numbers that way I think I am "entitled " to a Social Security check when the time comes and I'm old.

It's my money.....I paid for it .. ...it's not a handout.

[hioctane]

I love that Bush word "ENTITLEMENT" Making it sound like you want something for nothing.

How the hell is it an something for nothing when I and everyone else pays a 6.2% social security tax every paycheck of their lives and their employer makes a 6.2% matching contribution.

Every paycheck from the very first week you work to the last week of your working life. So if you work 50 years at the combined 12.4% total contribution that's a 620% contribution of your average life yearly salary and with it being invested in T bills and compounding it should be worth no less than 1000% at minimum.

If your average life pay was $30,000 then you should have $300,000. Now if at age 62 you draw $15,000/year you have outright capital for 20 years and if it is invested in T bills you should have enough for another 5 years to sustain you until you are 87. Some make it further some make it less ...it evens out and sound about right to me.

I don't have a Phd in math but when you look at the numbers that way I think I am "entitled " to a Social Security check when the time comes and I'm old.

It's my money.....I paid for it .. ...it's not a handout.

This is great in theory but the numbers don't add up. You are paid by your children's contributions. When they get old, they are getting paid by their children. The problem is... as a society we are having less and less children. We want 2-3 kids max and bitch about the people on welfare with 10 kids. In the current Social Security system you have to have people keep contributing to support the next generation getting old. It's like a bad Ponzi scheme. If something happens and people stop contributing, you are basically fucked and the system crumbles.

[JD426]

This is great in theory but the numbers don't add up. You are paid by your children's contributions. When they get old, they are getting paid by their children. The problem is... as a society we are having less and less children. We want 2-3 kids max and bitch about the people on welfare with 10 kids. In the current Social Security system you have to have people keep contributing to support the next generation getting old. It's like a bad Ponzi scheme. If something happens and people stop contributing, you are basically fucked and the system crumbles.

STOP CONFUSING PEOPLE WITH MATH...
I have a checkbook,and plenty of checks in it, so I musst have PLENTY of money in that account.
lol
no wonder we are on the road were on,
Like Making loans to people who are not qualified to ever repay them, because they are "entitled to housing" . this whole thing will most definitely collapse. but i think the biggest problem is the way our Govt is printing money & the devaluation of the dollar.
So the Pilots MAY JUST have a point, pay me a wage ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION, so I can still buy the same things I was able to a year ago. Not less. They have a right to ASK for it, noone is arguing that, but leaving passengers stranded, WE the consumer also have a right to NOT USE their Airline, and then they may be FUCKED out of their jobs. Its their call.

[PapiQueRico]

This is great in theory but the numbers don't add up. You are paid by your children's contributions. When they get old, they are getting paid by their children. The problem is... as a society we are having less and less children. We want 2-3 kids max and bitch about the people on welfare with 10 kids. In the current Social Security system you have to have people keep contributing to support the next generation getting old. It's like a bad Ponzi scheme. If something happens and people stop contributing, you are basically fucked and the system crumbles.

You leave out an important fact. Like the fact that the baby boomers paid in much more to the system than their parents received is SS payments. This is where the problem lies. Instead of saving those extra $$ for when the boomers retired the government spent it on current expenses. If all of the money paid in to SS had been left alone for that purpose there would not be a problem.

And I don't want to hear any shit about the Democrats this or the Republicans that. The reality is that both parties raided these funds, that both parties, when in power, spend like drunken children. It's the "tax and spend" Democrats and the "don't tax but spend anyway" Republicans.

The first step to fixing this problem is recognizing what really caused it.

[jacknback]

Last I heard,flight attendents are now on the picket line with pilots because the company furloughed them.Also news says that company,pilots and federal moderator were meeting in an undisclosed location in Fort Lauderdale. I hope this shit gets over soon as I want to use my miles to DR it in Sept.

[mikelodge]

The very top ones with the biggest airlines, sure.

With Spirit? I'd like to see where their salaries are listed.

Until then, we're just guessing.

I know what some of them make. Some Captains on a Big Major Airline with 20 years in are making over 200k. A co pilot on a commutor like Mesabi with just a few years on the job makes up to 60-70k depending if he takes all the flights offered.

My neigbor at the lake is a NWA now Delta Co-Pilot and he makes 120k and I know a guy here in MN that flies for Air Canada that makes over 150k as a co pilot and his wife is a flight attendant so he turned down Capitan because he said he has more flexibility as a Co Pilot.

Keep in mind the more years they have the better flights they get. Most of their pay plans pay X amount of dollars an hour for being on the ground and Y amount of dollars (much higher) for being in the air. This is why the rookies get the puddle jump flights.

Just the free travel they get for their families is worth a lot of money. And of course they always get the first class meal.

[Klockman]

I know what some of them make. Some Captains on a Big Major Airline with 20 years in are making over 200k. A co pilot on a commutor like Mesabi with just a few years on the job makes up to 60-70k depending if he takes all the flights offered.

My neigbor at the lake is a NWA now Delta Co-Pilot and he makes 120k and I know a guy here in MN that flies for Air Canada that makes over 150k as a co pilot and his wife is a flight attendant so he turned down Capitan because he said he has more flexibility as a Co Pilot.

Keep in mind the more years they have the better flights they get. Most of their pay plans pay X amount of dollars an hour for being on the ground and Y amount of dollars (much higher) for being in the air. This is why the rookies get the puddle jump flights.

Just the free travel they get for their families is worth a lot of money. And of course they always get the first class meal.

Thanks we know there are some top earners like there is in every position.

What I was looking for when I made my post was a better understanding of what the Spirit pilots made or if they weren't striking for money alone, what were there grievances?

Since then we've learned 3 years no contract (and no raise obviously), strike vote taken a year ago, mediation offered and declined (by the pilots) and they went off the job the moment they said they would.

But what jumped out at me was the nugget Spirit threw out that a minimum of X number of hours would qualify as a full year and that they would simply divide the number of hours flown by X and turn a 5 year employee into a 2 year employee, and I wouldn't stand for that either. That should be grandfathered, not backdated.

We've also learned that the pilots want what pilots at the other discount carriers get paid and while that has merit, I can't support a 20-30% raise, the economy hasn't yet recovered that much.

We've learned that unlike many airlines, Spirit made money even with the discount seats by charging for pillows, blankets, snacks, carry-on's...etc. Apparently they've not seen the need to properly compensate their employees and even they had to be surprised the pilots went this long before striking. 3 years without a contract is a long time. Remember, no contract can mean no job if the company chooses to lock you out.

And I said that they'd be back at the table shortly, they are. I didn't count on the FA's walking.

We should watch how this unfolds because American Airlines, recently demoted to the #3 US carrier is about to see 2 of 3 unions walk and they're business loss will be noticed by travelers much more than Spirit's

[hioctane]

Thanks we know there are some top earners like there is in every position.

What I was looking for when I made my post was a better understanding of what the Spirit pilots made or if they weren't striking for money alone, what were there grievances?

Since then we've learned 3 years no contract (and no raise obviously), strike vote taken a year ago, mediation offered and declined (by the pilots) and they went off the job the moment they said they would.

But what jumped out at me was the nugget Spirit threw out that a minimum of X number of hours would qualify as a full year and that they would simply divide the number of hours flown by X and turn a 5 year employee into a 2 year employee, and I wouldn't stand for that either. That should be grandfathered, not backdated.

We've also learned that the pilots want what pilots at the other discount carriers get paid and while that has merit, I can't support a 20-30% raise, the economy hasn't yet recovered that much.

We've learned that unlike many airlines, Spirit made money even with the discount seats by charging for pillows, blankets, snacks, carry-on's...etc. Apparently they've not seen the need to properly compensate their employees and even they had to be surprised the pilots went this long before striking. 3 years without a contract is a long time. Remember, no contract can mean no job if the company chooses to lock you out.

And I said that they'd be back at the table shortly, they are. I didn't count on the FA's walking.

We should watch how this unfolds because American Airlines, recently demoted to the #3 US carrier is about to see 2 of 3 unions walk and they're business loss will be noticed by travelers much more than Spirit's

For the pilots it's crazy to make to expect to make the same amount as what pilots at bigger airlines makes.. It's like saying you cook at McDonald's but you you want to make what the chef at a fancy French restaurant makes..

Of course Spirit makes money in other places otherwise they can't make their flights so "cheap". It's a all smoke and mirrors. I think I also read that these extras are not taxed. So that's why they wanted to charge for carry-ons. This way they can lower the price of fares even further.

These union/employer disputes hurts everyone... the customers, employees, owners.. In the end one side gets screwed. There needs to be some kind of independent mediation.

[Klockman]

For the pilots it's crazy to make to expect to make the same amount as what pilots at bigger airlines makes.. It's like saying you cook at McDonald's but you you want to make what the chef at a fancy French restaurant makes..

Of course Spirit makes money in other places otherwise they can't make their flights so "cheap". It's a all smoke and mirrors. I think I also read that these extras are not taxed. So that's why they wanted to charge for carry-ons. This way they can lower the price of fares even further.

These union/employer disputes hurts everyone... the customers, employees, owners.. In the end one side gets screwed. There needs to be some kind of independent mediation.

That point has been made to death probably because it fits the "greedy bastard" flavor this thread started off as.

They're not asking to be paid as much as they'd get from the big guys, they're asking for salaries comparable to Spirit's competition, and yes the cook at McDonald's will probably make the same as the cook at Burger King

[JD426]

I agree with both you guys, on many things, but bottom line is YOU DONT FUCK(ie STRAND) THE CUSTOMERS IN THIS ECONOMY AND EXPECT TO STAY IN BUSINESS.
F*** Spirit Airlines, and F*** their striking Pilots. I will NEVER use them because they could not figure this shit out, and made it OUR problem instead of THEIRS.

[Klockman]

I agree with both you guys, on many things, but bottom line is YOU DONT FUCK(ie STRAND) THE CUSTOMERS IN THIS ECONOMY AND EXPECT TO STAY IN BUSINESS.
F*** Spirit Airlines, and F*** their striking Pilots. I will NEVER use them because they could not figure this shit out, and made it OUR problem instead of THEIRS.

That's you.

I choose to not fly the discount carriers, period.

As for staying in business, maybe. Don't forget that the airlines after 9/11 with the exception of American went bankrupt, renegotiated with their unions to get back in business and they still lose money.

Apparently Spirit made money, and they knew the strike was coming, even went as far as to arrange replacements and they canceled many flights in advance, and the pilots despite promising to walk at 12:01, actually got many people back to the USA.

Yes, there are victims, there always is.

Will this bankrupt Spirit? Doubt it. Will they eventually settle with the pilots? Probably (and I'm guessing soon) It'll take one mailing advertising $9 fares to get everyone back on board. People will chase deals, they always have.

I'm prepared to pay a little more and be more comfortable, and Spirit doesn't fly to Canada, so they don't really affect me.

But I hope you keep your promise and vote with your wallet

[hioctane]

Ok.. I read the disagreement. I'll admit I didn't know the details before.. Management offered a 29% raise and $3000 signing bonus over 5 years. Pilots balked and wanted an immediate full 29% raise immediately. I think this is ludicrous. I think the pilots are in the wrong here.. How do you expect a company to stay in business taking such a big hit immediately?

[Klockman]

Ok.. I read the disagreement. I'll admit I didn't know the details before.. Management offered a 29% raise and $3000 signing bonus over 5 years. Pilots balked and wanted an immediate full 29% raise immediately. I think this is ludicrous. I think the pilots are in the wrong here.. How do you expect a company to stay in business taking such a big hit immediately?

Pilots are wrong if they want 29%, but that's where they began negotiating.

Read the rest of the disagreement, focusing on changes to made to seniority and the 401K, that's a bigger pill to swallow. And that's the biggest obstacle in my opinion.

I don't know how you tell a pilot that although he's worked for you 8 years, that because you've determined that a full year is 650 flying hours and your math has turned that pilot who had 8 years seniority into one with 3 years. That's fucking with the guys pension, his future, his seniority and eventually screws him from raises and pushes back his retirement several years. I'd never accept that

Pilots went 3 years no contract while Spirit made $107 Mil last year, something had to give.

Pilots will come off that 29% stuff and take 15-20% over a 5 year term. And Spirit will grandfather their 650 hours proposal so it doesn't affect service already given.

I hope

[jacknback]

I don't think the FA's walked the news said they were furloughed then I guess they decided to join the line.I myself will continue to use Spirit.When you only get a small SS check you have to seek out the deals where you can get them.I've only got a couple of years left physically in this game so I'm trying to take full advantage.

[hioctane]

There needs to be some law to prevent such strikes.. Such as you need a new contract 6 months before the old contract ends. Everyday you are late, you get fined (union and employer). This will squeeze them into coming up with a compromise.

[Klockman]

And as predicted, agreement reached and Spirit turns it into a marketing campaign.

Let's see how this plays out

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We're ready for take off - jump on board!
Spirit Airlines is pleased to announce that we're flying again with flights resuming Friday, June 18. We've reached a tentative agreement with our pilots that allows us to be successful for years to come and achieve our mission of continuing to bring you ultra low fares.



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[psriches]

But what's the catch with this $50 deal??

Spirit gives nothing away without small print.

[Klockman]

But what's the catch with this $50 deal??

Spirit gives nothing away without small print.

I'm just as bad as they are, next time I'll cut/paste the entire e-mail!

Just book by 11:59 PM ET on June 18, 2010 and enter 50OFF (all caps, no spaces) in the Promotion Code box on the home page when booking your flight to save $50* off your roundtrip purchase for travel from June 18, 2010 through November 17, 2010.

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Let's see if anyone that said they'd never use Spirit runs back to Spirit, and most importantly, we learned a lesson on CBA negotiations in this thread once we got past the rhetoric.

Klockman knew.

[jacknback]

I for 1 am really glad thuis is a done deal.Now I can use free miles!!!!!I love the way Spirit does the miles to.You use 5000 to go to DR and they give you the 1500 that it is round trip even though you are using your free miles.So actually you get to DR for 3500 miles!

[hioctane]

Interesting... So this is enough miles for a round trip to MDE? I might have to jump on the offer... We are all such whores!