Haiti & the Dominican Republic: An Island Divided (Full Episode/Black in Latin Am.)

[psriches]

Don't forget Brazil, which is Portuguese. Hundreds of years ago, a pope gave Brazil to Portugal, and most of the rest of South America to Spain.

And of course, the USA, which was discovered by an Italian explorer, sailing for Spain, and became a British colony. Go figure.

WHAT?????

[knotty]

And of course, the USA, which was discovered by an Italian explorer, sailing for Spain, and became a British colony. Go figure.

Huh???? The USA was not discovered by an Italian explorer. Columbus never set foot on what is now known as the USA. plus, the only group that can really claim discovery were the Asians that crossed during the ice age which we know as native Americans. Ponce de Leon could be considered one of the first Europeans to set foot here.

[Nakom]

I watched this last night and I thought it was good. The overall gist of the thing is that the island of Hispaniola was discovered by Columbus and then later Napoleon followed. The French and Spanish sides split, however both brought in 100,000's of African slaves. The DR dismissed their African roots, claimed Spain as their 'mother land', became Roman Catholic, spoke Spanish, and then through out history tried to convince it's population that is was white. Haiti embraced its Africa heritage, practiced Voodoo, and started speaking Creole which is primarily a French and African mix.

I was talking to a chica one night in the DR and she asked what I was doing later. I told her I was meeting up with my friends Mike, Jack, Johnny, and Greg (names changed). She said to me "Black Greg", in a disrespectful tone. Greg was African American and from NY. She then asked me how I could hang out with that guy - like I was crazy. She then asked me if I like people from Haiti.

I told her it does not matter to me, Italiano, Frances, Africano, Chino - it makes no difference to me. She was shocked. She told me that all those are people are ok except for Africano's and Haitians. I put my arm next to hers (they don't call me the pale rider for nothing). I pointed to my arm and said blanco and pointed at her arm and said negro. She fucking flipped - saying we were the same and black Greg was different.

Before this incident, I had known her as a half way intelligent, fun, non loca, chica. Needless to say, that was the last time I ever spent any time with her. I asked her where she learned to think like that and she said from her Mom and at school. In the documentary last night they touched on the fact that racism towards Haitians has (and sometimes still is) taught in schools. Go figure - food for thought.

[el toro]

The play Platanos and Collard Greens was about Dominicans accepting or denying their African roots.

[alvinthefirst]

"Many Black Americans claim they have Native Americans in the ancestory. Gates did another special that pointed out that many do not. As you stated it's a nice tale to pass on, but I don't think they are trying to deny any part of the history."



I have my grandparents reservation papers, and went to Graduate School for free because of it even though my own birth certificate says African American . I was able to trace my family history directly to a slave who was freed and took up residence on a reservation in the Carolinas right before the Civil War. Never believe what you see in the media.
Most Indian tribes not only cohabitated and lived with slaves, The Cherokees and the Apaches owned slaves and just like the White Masters, often interbred with them.

So much for myths. Looks as if you're in the middle of spreading one.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_I..._United_States

[DMV]

"Many Black Americans claim they have Native Americans in the ancestory. Gates did another special that pointed out that many do not. As you stated it's a nice tale to pass on, but I don't think they are trying to deny any part of the history."



I have my grandparents reservation papers, and went to Graduate School for free because of it even though my own birth certificate says African American . I was able to trace my family history directly to a slave who was freed and took up residence on a reservation in the Carolinas right before the Civil War. Never believe what you see in the media.
Most Indian tribes not only cohabitated and lived with slaves, The Cherokees and the Apaches owned slaves and just like the White Masters, often interbred with them.

So much for myths. Looks as if you're in the middle of spreading one.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_I..._United_States

I'm happy you can trace your roots but it doesn't negate that many believe they have Native American ancestry but do not. As you posted many tribes cohabitated with slaves. I wasn't trying to deny that some did. I thought that was clear. So what myth are you talking about?

[greydread]

Huh???? The USA was not discovered by an Italian explorer. Columbus never set foot on what is now known as the USA. plus, the only group that can really claim discovery were the Asians that crossed during the ice age which we know as native Americans. Ponce de Leon could be considered one of the first Europeans to set foot here.

US History 101.

Ponce de Leon, Vasco da Gama, etc came about 35,000 years after the Koreans crossed the Bering land bridge (through China/ Russia) to become the first people in the Americas. Leif Erikson never made it past Newfoundland 500 years before Columbus never made it to North America at all.

Recent history has the Spanish, Portugese, Dutch French and English in North America trying to establish colonies, pretty much in that order. Most of the early tries failed.

Are we the only ones who watch NatGeo around here?

[knotty]

US History 101.

Ponce de Leon, Vasco da Gama, etc came about 35,000 years after the Koreans crossed the Bering land bridge (through China/ Russia) to become the first people in the Americas. Leif Erikson never made it past Newfoundland 500 years before Columbus never made it to North America at all.

Recent history has the Spanish, Portugese, Dutch French and English in North America trying to establish colonies, pretty much in that order. Most of the early tries failed.

Are we the only ones who watch NatGeo around here?

maybe....natgeo, discovery, pbs, and the history channel is among my favorites. As they say, "Knowledge is Power".

[uncle ruckus]

After seeing the documentary and reading this thread (and other threads in other DR forums) I almost feel like I have to comment to defend the DR point of view.

Obviously there is a race problem in the Dominican Republic. Just like there's a race problem in the United States and race problems in every single country around the world. The bottom line is that if there are differently colored skins within a continent, country, state, or city, there will be racism. Look at the prison population, educational statistics, income disparity levels, or almost any other metric to see the vast problems with race in the United States. I have an Italian friend whose family refuses to see her or her child because the father is black and the child is mulatto. Race problems are a reality around the world, not just in the DR.

That said, I think DR gets a disproportionate amount of criticism on the race question because people just can't understand how these black people refuse to accept or acknowledge that they're black. The reality is that most of us are not black, we are shades of brown. Almost every Dominican is a mulatto, and the generational mixing of mulattoes leads to the largest variety of shades of skin color in the planet. Skin color is much, much less of an issue in the DR than it is in the US or in many predominantly European countries, mainly because the difference between white/black is much greater than the difference between white/tan/light brown/brown/dark brown/black. In my example, I have a typical brown complexion (think like Leonel Fernandez) but my sister is light skinned blond, with "bad" hair and green eyes. My brother is a lighter skinned version of me. My uncle is black. My other uncle (Uncle 1's brother) is almost European. And my situation isn't unique, it's the norm. The huge intermingling of colors makes race almost irrelevant to most Dominicans. Peña Gomez is a good example. The man is revered by almost half of the country. The primary airport in the country is named after him and the fraud that prevented him from obtaining the Presidency almost led to a civil war until he had to personally tell his supporters to stand down. If race relations were as bad as portrayed, this man would not have been allowed to obtain the power he held.

I'll admit that at the highest level (maybe top 5%) of society, race is much more important because that's the only part of the population that cares about what part of Spain so-and-so's grandparents originally came from. If you look at the very very rich, they're almost exclusively European and their kids are taught at an early age that they are to marry into their class to keep racial purity. It's disgraceful, but it's true.

The Haitian problem is something altogether different. When you think of DR/Haiti, think of US/Mexico. Dominicans need their cheap labor, but want to refuse to acknowledge that they exist and refuse to provide to them the same rights that all other residents enjoy (sound familiar?). When there are too much of them, Dominicans complain that they're affecting the DR culture (oxymoron?) and that they're destroying the country (again, sound familiar?). Also, there's a prodigal son mentality with Haiti. DR feels like it's done everything right compared with Haiti. We are proud that with the exact same resources that Haiti has, we've built a semi-functioning society while across the border it's a Lord of the Flies type disgrace. For the same reason, we look down on Haitians for their irresponsibility in maintaining their country. It's the same way you would look down on your neighbor doesn't maintain their property. Just like your neighbor's carelessness can bring pests and lower your property values, Haiti's irresponsibility spreads its social ills to the DR. DR has enough problems to deal with without having to deal with Haiti's too. It's not about race, it's about the negative effect of Haitian disorder on DR. The problem is that every Haitian living in the DR then becomes a symbol and outlet for that frustration.

To close this out, let me put up the two extremes of Dominicans: #1 is a businessman in Santiago whose great-grandparents immigrated from Spain. The guy is my father's uncle:
The second is the aforementioned Peña Gomez. This image is hanging in my grandfather's house next to the obligatory image of Jesus. My grandfather revered both almost equally (maybe Peña Gomez more).

Everything in between those two is a Dominican.

[weyland]

Excellent post, Uncle Ruckus.

[hugrad95a]

I watched this last night and I thought it was good. The overall gist of the thing is that the island of Hispaniola was discovered by Columbus and then later Napoleon followed. The French and Spanish sides split, however both brought in 100,000's of African slaves. The DR dismissed their African roots, claimed Spain as their 'mother land', became Roman Catholic, spoke Spanish, and then through out history tried to convince it's population that is was white. Haiti embraced its Africa heritage, practiced Voodoo, and started speaking Creole which is primarily a French and African mix.

I was talking to a chica one night in the DR and she asked what I was doing later. I told her I was meeting up with my friends Mike, Jack, Johnny, and Greg (names changed). She said to me "Black Greg", in a disrespectful tone. Greg was African American and from NY. She then asked me how I could hang out with that guy - like I was crazy. She then asked me if I like people from Haiti.

I told her it does not matter to me, Italiano, Frances, Africano, Chino - it makes no difference to me. She was shocked. She told me that all those are people are ok except for Africano's and Haitians. I put my arm next to hers (they don't call me the pale rider for nothing). I pointed to my arm and said blanco and pointed at her arm and said negro. She fucking flipped - saying we were the same and black Greg was different.

Before this incident, I had known her as a half way intelligent, fun, non loca, chica. Needless to say, that was the last time I ever spent any time with her. I asked her where she learned to think like that and she said from her Mom and at school. In the documentary last night they touched on the fact that racism towards Haitians has (and sometimes still is) taught in schools. Go figure - food for thought.

How she could put her arm against your and say that you were the same color is crazy. Wow...

[Hunter]

Excellent post Uncle....that was really informative....

Did you watch the Cuba episode??

I have only been to Cuba once but their is a definte divde in that country. The European cubans holding all the power positions etc. I noticed it. The Miami money coming into the country goes to the Europeans, etc.

The special brought out the point at some point in the 60s I believe Castro flooded Cuba with Spanish Europeans. This series has gotten me interested in history again. I gotta start reading those history books .

[knotty]

Excellent post Uncle....that was really informative....

Did you watch the Cuba episode??

I have onlyo been to Cuba once but their is a definte divde in that country. The European cubans holding all the power positions etc. I noticed it. The Miami money coming into the country goes to the Europeans, etc.

The special brought out the point at some point in the 60s I believe Castro flooded Cuba with Spanish Europeans. This series has gotten me interested in history again. I gotta start reading those history books .

It's the same thing they have done in many Latin American countries to "whiting" up the country because it was too dark.

[SrSuerte]

It would be nice to hear more about Belize and Guatemala. Belize especially.

[SrSuerte]

It always fascintates me with languages on the islands, south america etc...

You really get a sense of history...

Muthfuckin Spanish just tore everything up...fuckers ...making us learn Spanish.

Thats why Spanish is everywhere but Jamaica, Belize...English colonies...

And the French colonies etc...

Jack Sparrow and the pirates

Espanol speaking workers have been increasing their presence in Belize.

[hugrad95a]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0S6HTQI4

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0BQ4VMR1

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NEMVXYQP

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=O6JDMX4J

[Hoseman]

"Many Black Americans claim they have Native Americans in the ancestory. Gates did another special that pointed out that many do not. As you stated it's a nice tale to pass on, but I don't think they are trying to deny any part of the history."



I have my grandparents reservation papers, and went to Graduate School for free because of it even though my own birth certificate says African American . I was able to trace my family history directly to a slave who was freed and took up residence on a reservation in the Carolinas right before the Civil War. Never believe what you see in the media.
Most Indian tribes not only cohabitated and lived with slaves, The Cherokees and the Apaches owned slaves and just like the White Masters, often interbred with them.

So much for myths. Looks as if you're in the middle of spreading one.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_I..._United_States

You have too look at where and who all this info is coming from there were already people of color in America and South America no they did not all come over on slave ships anyone ever heard of Pangea? http://geology.com/pangea-continental-drift.gif

[Maretti]

...The special brought out the point at some point in the 60s I believe Castro flooded Cuba with Spanish Europeans...

I didn't notice this message before. People were immigrating to Cuba before Castro, after him, it was the other way around, as a matter of fact, after Castro, the black population started to grow.

[getrhythm]

You have too look at where and who all this info is coming from there were already people of color in America and South America no they did not all come over on slave ships anyone ever heard of Pangea? http://geology.com/pangea-continental-drift.gif

Not sure what your point is here, but if you're implying that there was anything remotely human around at the time before the continents split from the single land mass of Pangea, you're quite mistaken. In fact, as the link above shows, the New World and Old World continents had split off completely by the Cretaceous period, which was still well before our earliest ancestors walked the earth.

OTOH, it's a pretty safe bet that the only people in the New World prior to Columbus' arrival were native peoples that had in fact migrated from Asia, and nearly all the people of African descent that arrived over the first few centuries did in fact arrive on slave ships. That's not meant in any way to denigrate anyone's racial heritage - that's just the way it happened.

BTW - thanks to Hugrad for the links - enjoying this series a lot...

[Hoseman]

Not sure what your point is here, but if you're implying that there was anything remotely human around at the time before the continents split from the single land mass of Pangea, you're quite mistaken. In fact, as the link above shows, the New World and Old World continents had split off completely by the Cretaceous period, which was still well before our earliest ancestors walked the earth.

OTOH, it's a pretty safe bet that the only people in the New World prior to Columbus' arrival were native peoples that had in fact migrated from Asia, and nearly all the people of African descent that arrived over the first few centuries did in fact arrive on slave ships. That's not meant in any way to denigrate anyone's racial heritage - that's just the way it happened.

BTW - thanks to Hugrad for the links - enjoying this series a lot...

Have you every seen one of those slave ships? How many you think could actually live under those conditions they were not really feeding then they could not move around could you imagine how many would die due to the spread on disease?Where did the Asians Come from?Who did you get your facts from?Who they hell wrote the books and provided all the info that you base your facts on?They teach you early on in school that when a Country was conquered they destroyed that countries history.