Chavez protest

[Downtown]

Greydread,

I'm not so sure if I totally agree with your statement "Hugo Chavez' biggest crime was to turn the profits from the nation's oil reserves away from foreign investors and toward the poor in his country, providing basic medical treatment (especially in rural areas)." From what I have witnessed in Cuba, Chavez has not done that at all. Venezuela and Cuba are linked politically and monetarily account the US embargo. Venezuela desperately need medical know how and Cuba needs oil. They effectively trade these two items. At the onset, Cuba sent doctors and nurses to Venezuela, but their medical system is poorly managed and lacks the medical support that Cuban doctors enjoy back home. Hence, Venezuelans by the plane load were sent to Cuba for medical treatment, notably eye, cardio-vascular and endoscopic surgeries. However, the Cuban medical system did not have sufficient hospitals to facilitate this sudden influx of patients. So Castro remedied the problem by turning primarily old Russian built hotels into clinics. When this all started, I was in downtown Havana, and there were buses parked three deep along the Prado from the Capitolio to the Malecon, about 2 km. There were literally hundreds of them! But the issue is that the patients being sent from Venezuela are not those who live in rural/countryside areas; they are mainly well to do upper and middle class citizens. The big difference between these two cultures is that Castro does provide medical assistance to his people with a government funded system, although poorly equipped, whereas Chavez does not.

[eldorob]

I don't buy it El. I believe in democracy, and can not accept the "vote" of the middle class as you call it. As for your view of the poor and their possible involvement in how this plays out, you do not remember what happened in 2002 when the people marched down from the shanty towns that ring the hillsides around Caracas and put on mass counter demonstrations. They surely played their role as did the leaders of the coup who overplayed their hand by disbanding the supreme court.

A vote of confidence did take place, in 2004. The Organisation of American States oversaw this vote. Another vote took place last year. Hugo was re-elected to another 6 year term.

You can't rationally support the concept of democracy and not support the concept of one man one vote. You can't rationally site demonstrations by one segment of the population as representing the will of the people. This is spin at its best and blatant lies at its worst.

As an asside, it is very strange that the software disallowed the word H I T L E R

I think you misread my statements...I absolutely support a democratic vote and the authority it puts into a power...but it's a fact of life that when people feel they are pushed to a point where they feel voting is worthless then they take to the streets...we neither have to accept it or agree...it's just a fact....and that is what the middle class in Caracas (and other cities I think according to some reports) are doing...if they think its that important then that's that...they're the ones putting their lifes on the line...

As to your comment re the poor coming from the shanty towns around Caracas in 2002, you are correct....and it is now being reported that "socialists from the surrounding mountains" have come into Caracas to counter the anti-Chavez demonstrators...according to very limited news rreporting the Police are keeping the two groups apart, but that the anti-chavez crowd outnumber the "Socialists"

The crowd is "estimated" now at 15,000.....
one dead thus far
crowd demanding that the TV station be allowed back on the air...
still very limited reporting coming out so any "facts" could be questionable at best

[PapiQueRico]

I think you misread my statements...I absolutely support a democratic vote and the authority it puts into a power...but it's a fact of life that when people feel they are pushed to a point where they feel voting is worthless then they take to the streets...we neither have to accept it or agree...it's just a fact....and that is what the middle class in Caracas (and other cities I think according to some reports) are doing...if they think its that important then that's that...they're the ones putting their lifes on the line...

As to your comment re the poor coming from the shanty towns around Caracas in 2002, you are correct....and it is now being reported that "socialists from the surrounding mountains" have come into Caracas to counter the anti-Chavez demonstrators...according to very limited news rreporting the Police are keeping the two groups apart, but that the anti-chavez crowd outnumber the "Socialists"

The crowd is "estimated" now at 15,000.....
one dead thus far
crowd demanding that the TV station be allowed back on the air...
still very limited reporting coming out so any "facts" could be questionable at best

Then you support the continuance of the Chavez presidency until he is removed in either a constitutional manner or in the next elections six years from now. This is not what I understood from your posts this morning.

[eldorob]

I don't buy it El. I believe in democracy, and can not accept the "vote" of the middle class as you call it. As for your view of the poor and their possible involvement in how this plays out, you do not remember what happened in 2002 when the people marched down from the shanty towns that ring the hillsides around Caracas and put on mass counter demonstrations. They surely played their role as did the leaders of the coup who overplayed their hand by disbanding the supreme court.

A vote of confidence did take place, in 2004. The Organisation of American States oversaw this vote. Another vote took place last year. Hugo was re-elected to another 6 year term.

You can't rationally support the concept of democracy and not support the concept of one man one vote. You can't rationally site demonstrations by one segment of the population as representing the will of the people. This is spin at its best and blatant lies at its worst.

As an asside, it is very strange that the software disallowed the word H I T L E R

I think you misread my statements...I absolutely support a democratic vote and the authority it puts into a power...but it's a fact of life that when people feel they are pushed to a point where they feel voting is worthless then they take to the streets...we neither have to accept it or agree...it's just a fact....and that is what the middle class in Caracas (and other cities I think according to some reports) are doing...if they think its that important then that's that...they're the ones putting their lifes on the line...

As to your comment re the poor coming from the shanty towns around Caracas in 2002, you are correct....and it is now being reported that "socialists from the surrounding mountains" have come into Caracas to counter the anti-Chavez demonstrators...according to very limited news rreporting the Police are keeping the two groups apart, but that the anti-chavez crowd outnumber the "Socialists"

The crowd is "estimated" now at 15,000.....
one dead thus far
crowd demanding that the TV station be allowed back on the air...
still very limited reporting coming out so any "facts" could be questionable at best

[JuanElGriego]

It's still mind-boggling to me why Chavez decided to do what he did. It gives everyone who despised him the right to say "see, i told you he was a fascist" and makes everyone who's supported him look like an asshole .... and over what, a stupid fuckin t.v. station. With all the shit he had to go through to gain and then regain power, to give his enemies new ammunition just makes no sense, especially when even his supporters can't (fairly) defend this latest move.

If i had to guess i'd say he's just become completely paranoid, but what he's done is make a mountain out of a molehill and he can't come out of this looking good no matter the outcome.

[SJG]

I think the most interesting hypocracy that people are missing is that Chavez only carried through on a threat that the Bush Administration-appointed FCC has leveled against US broadcasters many times.

RCTV in Venezuela mearly stood up to Chavez, and lost. The other broadcaster accused of the same kind of opposition support fell in line and Chavez left their license alone.

Clear Channel, Infinty Broadcasting (CBS Radio), and other US broadcasters chose to pay large fines and take radio personalities off the air rather than see the FCC hold up or deny their licence renewals. If they had their license revoked, the federal govenment in the US would have sent enforcement agencies to ensure they no longer broadcast as well.

The difference is that in the US, it is mearly "moral" issues (some pretty skewed morals, if you ask me) that lead the government to levy fines and delay license renewals, while in Venezuela, it appears to be political issues in the guise of moral issues. But the arguement can be made that it is all political. It's a lot easier to distract your people with mock outrage and sanctions over Janet Jackson's tit or Howard Stern talking about lesbians with one hand, while the other hand is taking the country to war and killing our youth in the military with lies and false pretenses while lining the pockets for it's Haliburton and oil executive cronies.