Chavez protest

[eldorob]

Pres Chavez shut down a popular TV Station last nite and the people poured into the streets in Caracas. Police with tear gas firing , crowd growing this morning. Reports of gunfire but could be mistaken tear gas shots, still unclear. The people angry at loosing their democracy. Local Police are reported to be siding with the people in the streets, but not fighting against the military yet.

My opinion, this could go either way. But if the crowd grows larger, angrier and stronger, I predict some bloodshed. I don't see Chavez stepping down without a fight.

But when the orders roll out to start shooting citizens, thats when you may see a General step up and put an end to the nonsense.

My moneys on the people, they have the power to throw the bum out. But it may costs some lives.

[PapiQueRico]

Don't underestimate "the bum." He has already withstood a coup attempt planned and supported by Washington. He also has a significant majority of the population on his side.

Closing TV stations at whim is clearly anti democratic, but if your "money is on the people" then your money is on Hugo "fidelito" Chavez. He consistently poles well over 60% even in opposition poles, and has won elections that were internationally supervised observed to be open and fair. Reality is that the poor like him and there are a lot more poor than middle class or rich in Venezuela.

I'm not a fan of Hugo Chavez, though I am in favor of recognizing reality.

[weyland]

Pres Chavez shut down a popular TV Station last nite
Your so-called "popular" radio station is funded by the CIA to stir up trouble as are the rent-a-mobs in the streets.

[Downtown]

If things get too out of hand for his troops, then Castro will almost definitely come in with some of his to bolster the ranks and shut down any insurrection (or coup for that matter). These two are certainly in bed with one another and will support each other even if it costs people's lives.

[eldorob]

Don't underestimate "the bum." He has already withstood a coup attempt planned and supported by Washington. He also has a significant majority of the population on his side.

Closing TV stations at whim is clearly anti democratic, but if your "money is on the people" then your money is on Hugo "fidelito" Chavez. He consistently poles well over 60% even in opposition poles, and has won elections that were internationally supervised observed to be open and fair. Reality is that the poor like him and there are a lot more poor than middle class or rich in Venezuela.

I'm not a fan of Hugo Chavez, though I am in favor of recognizing reality.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276000,00.html

Yes, Chavez could still come out of this on top....if the crowd loses momentum, he wins.

But if the crowds in Caracas grows as it was this morning, and the protest grows to other cities, (which will be the Anti-chavez middle class) then they could sweep him out.

If at some point he gets scared & orders live rounds to be fired into the crowd, I think that will be the turning point. Once the military sides with the people (no military likes firing into crowds of their own countrymen) that will be the beginining of the end for Prez Chavez. The poor do not have the resources to unite and protect him.

[eldorob]

Your so-called "popular" radio station is funded by the CIA to stir up trouble as are the rent-a-mobs in the streets.

BS, according to the news reports it is a popular station. And I doubt the office workers leaving their jobs to join the protest are all on the CIA payroll.

[eldorob]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6699383.stm

[JD426]

I lived in a communist country when I was a Kid, and the polls for Nikolai Chauchescu were closer to 100%, funny how when his 24 yr reingn of terror and Bullshit were up they lined him and his wife up against a wall and shot them both.Some of my dads close friends disappeared when they spoke out against, so everyone just pretended they were happy with him. Dont underestimate the REAL feelings of the people, and never listen to polls. Who do you think is counting those numbers in the first place ? BTW, the poor are very fickle, they go with whoever gives them the best mealticket, only exception is the maybe Cuba. I am not a political analyst by any stretch, im only speaking from what Ive experienced first hand as a Kid growing up. Living it is completely diff from what you read.
Venezuala is going to erupt, just a matter of time now.I think they are ready and civilized enough for a true democracy.
Where did you read that Washington supports this bum ?, since Chavez openly states he wants Bush offed, i find that hard to believe. I know they Kennedys like him ,cause of the cheap heating oil deal thing.

just my .02


Don't underestimate "the bum." He has already withstood a coup attempt planned and supported by Washington. He also has a significant majority of the population on his side.

Closing TV stations at whim is clearly anti democratic, but if your "money is on the people" then your money is on Hugo "fidelito" Chavez. He consistently poles well over 60% even in opposition poles, and has won elections that were internationally supervised observed to be open and fair. Reality is that the poor like him and there are a lot more poor than middle class or rich in Venezuela.

I'm not a fan of Hugo Chavez, though I am in favor of recognizing reality.

[greydread]

I don't agree with the US involvement in Venezuela's affairs and I don't agree with the generalalized "democratic" assessment of his government.

Hugo Chavez' biggest crime was to turn the profits from the nation's oil reserves away from foreign investors and toward the poor in his country, providing basic medical treatment (especially in rural areas) and embarking upon the most agressive literacy campaign in the nation's history.

The people he's working to help have been ass fucked by "democratic" government which actually has worked more like feudalism for the last 100 years while the oil profits that didn't go overseas stayed in the hands of a few ruling families and the poor got jack shit.

The worst crime you can commit in our "civilized democratic society" is to be poor. If you are found protecting the poor and actually placing their interests and needs ahead of corporate profiteers and their government stooges then you're a f'ing communist? Bullshit!

The U.S. and global big oil hates Chavez for exactly the same reason that the Romans hated Christ. Go ahead and believe the hype if you want to but if they martyr Chavez, there will be thousands who will rise to replace him. Listen to his address to the oil company executives upon his first election. Take an open minded look at what's going on in the provinces, 60 year old peasants getting free medical care and learning how to read. He's making a lot of good things happen for people who really need it and IMO anyone who thinks that helping the poor is a bad thing is on the wrong side of righteousness.

I just hope we get over this national obsession with telling everyone else how to live and concentrate on building better relations through policies based on fairness and mutual respect. I miss that Venezuelan punani....

I firmly believe that the greatest potential for economic growth in the next century is in Latin America once they throw off the yoke of old world based feudalism and properly develop their human resources. Let's hope that their version of democracy can teach ours a thing or two.

[eldorob]

I don't agree with the US involvement in Venezuela's affairs and I don't agree with the generalalized "democratic" assessment of his government.

Hugo Chavez' biggest crime was to turn the profits from the nation's oil reserves away from foreign investors and toward the poor in his country, providing basic medical treatment (especially in rural areas) and embarking upon the most agressive literacy campaign in the nation's history.

The people he's working to help have been ass fucked by "democratic" government which actually has worked more like feudalism for the last 100 years while the oil profits that didn't go overseas stayed in the hands of a few ruling families and the poor got jack shit.

The worst crime you can commit in our "civilized democratic society" is to be poor. If you are found protecting the poor and actually placing their interests and needs ahead of corporate profiteers and their government stooges then you're a f'ing communist? Bullshit!

The U.S. and global big oil hates Chavez for exactly the same reason that the Romans hated Christ. Go ahead and believe the hype if you want to but if they martyr Chavez, there will be thousands who will rise to replace him. Listen to his address to the oil company executives upon his first election. Take an open minded look at what's going on in the provinces, 60 year old peasants getting free medical care and learning how to read. He's making a lot of good things happen for people who really need it and IMO anyone who thinks that helping the poor is a bad thing is on the wrong side of righteousness.

I just hope we get over this national obsession with telling everyone else how to live and concentrate on building better relations through policies based on fairness and mutual respect. I miss that Venezuelan punani....

I firmly believe that the greatest potential for economic growth in the next century is in Latin America once they throw off the yoke of old world based feudalism and properly develop their human resources. Let's hope that their version of democracy can teach ours a thing or two.

that would be Chavez's version of democracy, not the general population, that's why the streets are filling up with angry mobs...

If a country is rich in natural resources (Saudi Arabia for example), they can provide many free services for their people, as the saudis do I believe....now one could say that the Royal Saudi family are dictators....which may be true, were they voted in? But where a dictator becomes no good is when they expect to "take from the rich and give to the poor", that just doesn't work long term. That is why comumunes never seem to take off, because not everybody puts in their fair share of work.

It takes money to stay in business and it doesn't matter whether your Mobil Oil or a Mom & Pop Mercado on Dr Rosen. If you work hard and make a profit, it belongs to you and no one else (after taxes of course)

Thanks for your input, that's what makes any debate interesting....

[PapiQueRico]

The interesting aspect of this thread is how clearly it shows that those on the right believe in democracy just up to the point that the "right" guys get elected.

We see here talk of the military using force to change the government. This is a country where a president (like him or not) was elected, supported in a recall vote and later re-elected. These were not the closed votes of Chauchescu, but internationally monitored elections.

JD426, you misread my statement. I did not say that Washington supported Chavez, but that the Bush administration supported the 2002 coup attempt.

It is quite simple, the Eldorobs of the world have no problem with military coups as the manner of changing the outcome of democratic elections. Then the hypocrisy is continued by calling this the will of the people. I wonder where there is a constitution that calls for street protests by one segment of the population to supersede general elections. Eldorob, you say that the poor do not have the resources to protect Chavez. In your vision of democracy shouldn't their vote be all of the resources they need?

JD246 don't the poor have the right to be fickle about who they support, just like the wealthy? If you believe in democracy then you should be hoping that Hugo gets booted out in 6 years in the next election, but it doesn't seem like you believe in democracy.

You all had better get used to this problem. As the US goes around the world telling other nations to hold elections, they results are often not what Washington has wanted. From Shiites in Iraq, to Hamas in Palestine. In South America leftists are being elected throughout the region. Lula in Brasil, and Bicholet in Chile will work with the US to some extent. Chavez, and Morales in Bolivia will not. Who knows what will be with Ortega in Nicaragua? OK you neo cons, be careful what you ask for, you might not like the results. It won't be so easy to remove these elected leaders as it was with Allende!!!!

[weyland]

It takes money to stay in business and it doesn't matter whether your Mobil Oil or a Mom & Pop Mercado on Dr Rosen. If you work hard and make a profit, it belongs to you and no one else (after taxes of course)
That is a very nineteenth-century view. The lesson of the last hundred years is that small businesses have to work harder and harder to earn less and less because the logic of capitalism is that all the money finds its way eventually to a handful of incredibly rich people who decide who governs, who judges, and who pays what to whom. That applies throughout Latin America and in the USA.

[eldorob]

The interesting aspect of this thread is how clearly it shows that those on the right believe in democracy just up to the point that the "right" guys get elected.

We see here talk of the military using force to change the government. This is a country where a president (like him or not) was elected, supported in a recall vote and later re-elected. These were not the closed votes of Chauchescu, but internationally monitored elections.

JD426, you misread my statement. I did not say that Washington supported Chavez, but that the Bush administration supported the 2002 coup attempt.

It is quite simple, the Eldorobs of the world have no problem with military coups as the manner of changing the outcome of democratic elections. Then the hypocrisy is continued by calling this the will of the people. I wonder where there is a constitution that calls for street protests by one segment of the population to supersede general elections. Eldorob, you say that the poor do not have the resources to protect Chavez. In your vision of democracy shouldn't their vote be all of the resources they need?

papiQ, this isn't a Military Coup yet, like the last attempt. But yes, they are sometimes useful if justified. Who determines if it's justified? I guess whoever has some juice at the time...not a flippant remark, just the truth...

As jd426 said, it's much different when your living it....for citizens to flood the streets risking their lives to stop what they percieve to be a huge injustice to their way of life and to their country says something....it speaks volumes...

There were several attempted military coups against Adolf ******. Too bad they didn't succed as it might have saved millions of lives.

As for the poor not having the resources to protect Prez Chavez....that was a statement of fact.... Even if this goes on for several weeks the poor will not be able to help him, whatever happens will be without their input - your absoulutely right, a fair vote would be ideal, a "vote of confidence" so to speak, but that's not what's happening there. If he is chased into exile it will be by the "vote" of the middle class only

[greydread]

The interesting aspect of this thread is how clearly it shows that those on the right believe in democracy just up to the point that the "right" guys get elected.


You all had better get used to this problem. As the US goes around the world telling other nations to hold elections, they results are often not what Washington has wanted. From Shiites in Iraq, to Hamas in Palestine. In South America leftists are being elected throughout the region. Lula in Brasil, and Bicholet in Chile will work with the US to some extent. Chavez, and Morales in Bolivia will not. Who knows what will be with Ortega in Nicaragua? OK you neo cons, be careful what you ask for, you might not like the results. It won't be so easy to remove these elected leaders as it was with Allende!!!!

You hit that one out of the park.

It's important to understand that the current global economic model works just like a pyramid scam. Like a pyramid scam it will fall apart when suckers stop buying in at the base and the people at the top run away with all the money. There will be a "new deal" and it will take effect on a global level now that we're all tied together by a transcontinental economic umbilical which can send world markets soaring or crashing at the speed of light.

In the current model it is important to maintain a threshhold level of underclass who must do just about anything (pump gas, cook fries, fight, fuck, whatever) for just enough money to get by for today/ this week/ this month/ the rest of their miserable lives. It's equally important to maintain the cycle of poverty by making health care, education and opportunity in general available to only a small number from this underclass, thus ensuring the continuation of the cycle from generation to generation. It's extremely important to keep the women pregnant and the men drunk and everybody too stupid to count the money that you're stealing from them.

There is a growing number of people who have busted out of the heard and calling their leaders to task and replacing them when they don't listen. The reason that they're doing it through organized political means is that this underclass is begining to educate itself. This speed of light technology will actually be the catalyst for a new kind of revolution and as it's happening we're seeing old standards (like national currencies and borders) become increasingly meaningless.

I only hope that the people in our own hemisphere who have suffered as the result of our "me 1st" political and economic policies are more forgiving than those which we are encountering in the middle East at present. Eventually every bully on every block goes down.

Sorry for the rant guys but I honestly think it's not too late for us to get it right but first we get our boots off their necks then we apologize and then we can sit down and maybe then the 3rd world will trust us to negotiate in fairness and stop trying to blow us up.

This is my last post on this thread, I promise.

[weyland]

This is my last post on this thread, I promise.
In that case, PM me instead. You're my kind of American!

[PapiQueRico]

papiQ, this isn't a Military Coup yet, like the last attempt. But yes, they are sometimes useful if justified. Who determines if it's justified? I guess whoever has some juice at the time...not a flippant remark, just the truth...

As jd426 said, it's much different when your living it....for citizens to flood the streets risking their lives to stop what they percieve to be a huge injustice to their way of life and to their country says something....it speaks volumes...

There were several attempted military coups against Adolf ******. Too bad they didn't succed as it might have saved millions of lives.

As for the poor not having the resources to protect Prez Chavez....that was a statement of fact.... Even if this goes on for several weeks the poor will not be able to help him, whatever happens will be without their input - your absoulutely right, a fair vote would be ideal, a "vote of confidence" so to speak, but that's not what's happening there. If he is chased into exile it will be by the "vote" of the middle class only

I don't buy it El. I believe in democracy, and can not accept the "vote" of the middle class as you call it. As for your view of the poor and their possible involvement in how this plays out, you do not remember what happened in 2002 when the people marched down from the shanty towns that ring the hillsides around Caracas and put on mass counter demonstrations. They surely played their role as did the leaders of the coup who overplayed their hand by disbanding the supreme court.

A vote of confidence did take place, in 2004. The Organisation of American States oversaw this vote. Another vote took place last year. Hugo was re-elected to another 6 year term.

You can't rationally support the concept of democracy and not support the concept of one man one vote. You can't rationally site demonstrations by one segment of the population as representing the will of the people. This is spin at its best and blatant lies at its worst.

As an asside, it is very strange that the software disallowed the word H I T L E R

[jensenspecial]

really ????? ******.....well it works....it is a common austrian name

[jensenspecial]

hahahahah no it doesn't hahahahah what is happening here??????
Saddam works, Bush works....even Bill Maher is acceptable....strange message board...total control a la USA...happy birthday !!!

[Kevy]

Several words were picked up from a data base a while back and are not allowed. Nothing personal.

[jensenspecial]

hahahHAAHA I know ...just kidding ...there are many like this around....

[Downtown]

Greydread,

I'm not so sure if I totally agree with your statement "Hugo Chavez' biggest crime was to turn the profits from the nation's oil reserves away from foreign investors and toward the poor in his country, providing basic medical treatment (especially in rural areas)." From what I have witnessed in Cuba, Chavez has not done that at all. Venezuela and Cuba are linked politically and monetarily account the US embargo. Venezuela desperately need medical know how and Cuba needs oil. They effectively trade these two items. At the onset, Cuba sent doctors and nurses to Venezuela, but their medical system is poorly managed and lacks the medical support that Cuban doctors enjoy back home. Hence, Venezuelans by the plane load were sent to Cuba for medical treatment, notably eye, cardio-vascular and endoscopic surgeries. However, the Cuban medical system did not have sufficient hospitals to facilitate this sudden influx of patients. So Castro remedied the problem by turning primarily old Russian built hotels into clinics. When this all started, I was in downtown Havana, and there were buses parked three deep along the Prado from the Capitolio to the Malecon, about 2 km. There were literally hundreds of them! But the issue is that the patients being sent from Venezuela are not those who live in rural/countryside areas; they are mainly well to do upper and middle class citizens. The big difference between these two cultures is that Castro does provide medical assistance to his people with a government funded system, although poorly equipped, whereas Chavez does not.

[eldorob]

I don't buy it El. I believe in democracy, and can not accept the "vote" of the middle class as you call it. As for your view of the poor and their possible involvement in how this plays out, you do not remember what happened in 2002 when the people marched down from the shanty towns that ring the hillsides around Caracas and put on mass counter demonstrations. They surely played their role as did the leaders of the coup who overplayed their hand by disbanding the supreme court.

A vote of confidence did take place, in 2004. The Organisation of American States oversaw this vote. Another vote took place last year. Hugo was re-elected to another 6 year term.

You can't rationally support the concept of democracy and not support the concept of one man one vote. You can't rationally site demonstrations by one segment of the population as representing the will of the people. This is spin at its best and blatant lies at its worst.

As an asside, it is very strange that the software disallowed the word H I T L E R

I think you misread my statements...I absolutely support a democratic vote and the authority it puts into a power...but it's a fact of life that when people feel they are pushed to a point where they feel voting is worthless then they take to the streets...we neither have to accept it or agree...it's just a fact....and that is what the middle class in Caracas (and other cities I think according to some reports) are doing...if they think its that important then that's that...they're the ones putting their lifes on the line...

As to your comment re the poor coming from the shanty towns around Caracas in 2002, you are correct....and it is now being reported that "socialists from the surrounding mountains" have come into Caracas to counter the anti-Chavez demonstrators...according to very limited news rreporting the Police are keeping the two groups apart, but that the anti-chavez crowd outnumber the "Socialists"

The crowd is "estimated" now at 15,000.....
one dead thus far
crowd demanding that the TV station be allowed back on the air...
still very limited reporting coming out so any "facts" could be questionable at best

[PapiQueRico]

I think you misread my statements...I absolutely support a democratic vote and the authority it puts into a power...but it's a fact of life that when people feel they are pushed to a point where they feel voting is worthless then they take to the streets...we neither have to accept it or agree...it's just a fact....and that is what the middle class in Caracas (and other cities I think according to some reports) are doing...if they think its that important then that's that...they're the ones putting their lifes on the line...

As to your comment re the poor coming from the shanty towns around Caracas in 2002, you are correct....and it is now being reported that "socialists from the surrounding mountains" have come into Caracas to counter the anti-Chavez demonstrators...according to very limited news rreporting the Police are keeping the two groups apart, but that the anti-chavez crowd outnumber the "Socialists"

The crowd is "estimated" now at 15,000.....
one dead thus far
crowd demanding that the TV station be allowed back on the air...
still very limited reporting coming out so any "facts" could be questionable at best

Then you support the continuance of the Chavez presidency until he is removed in either a constitutional manner or in the next elections six years from now. This is not what I understood from your posts this morning.

[eldorob]

I don't buy it El. I believe in democracy, and can not accept the "vote" of the middle class as you call it. As for your view of the poor and their possible involvement in how this plays out, you do not remember what happened in 2002 when the people marched down from the shanty towns that ring the hillsides around Caracas and put on mass counter demonstrations. They surely played their role as did the leaders of the coup who overplayed their hand by disbanding the supreme court.

A vote of confidence did take place, in 2004. The Organisation of American States oversaw this vote. Another vote took place last year. Hugo was re-elected to another 6 year term.

You can't rationally support the concept of democracy and not support the concept of one man one vote. You can't rationally site demonstrations by one segment of the population as representing the will of the people. This is spin at its best and blatant lies at its worst.

As an asside, it is very strange that the software disallowed the word H I T L E R

I think you misread my statements...I absolutely support a democratic vote and the authority it puts into a power...but it's a fact of life that when people feel they are pushed to a point where they feel voting is worthless then they take to the streets...we neither have to accept it or agree...it's just a fact....and that is what the middle class in Caracas (and other cities I think according to some reports) are doing...if they think its that important then that's that...they're the ones putting their lifes on the line...

As to your comment re the poor coming from the shanty towns around Caracas in 2002, you are correct....and it is now being reported that "socialists from the surrounding mountains" have come into Caracas to counter the anti-Chavez demonstrators...according to very limited news rreporting the Police are keeping the two groups apart, but that the anti-chavez crowd outnumber the "Socialists"

The crowd is "estimated" now at 15,000.....
one dead thus far
crowd demanding that the TV station be allowed back on the air...
still very limited reporting coming out so any "facts" could be questionable at best

[JuanElGriego]

It's still mind-boggling to me why Chavez decided to do what he did. It gives everyone who despised him the right to say "see, i told you he was a fascist" and makes everyone who's supported him look like an asshole .... and over what, a stupid fuckin t.v. station. With all the shit he had to go through to gain and then regain power, to give his enemies new ammunition just makes no sense, especially when even his supporters can't (fairly) defend this latest move.

If i had to guess i'd say he's just become completely paranoid, but what he's done is make a mountain out of a molehill and he can't come out of this looking good no matter the outcome.

[SJG]

I think the most interesting hypocracy that people are missing is that Chavez only carried through on a threat that the Bush Administration-appointed FCC has leveled against US broadcasters many times.

RCTV in Venezuela mearly stood up to Chavez, and lost. The other broadcaster accused of the same kind of opposition support fell in line and Chavez left their license alone.

Clear Channel, Infinty Broadcasting (CBS Radio), and other US broadcasters chose to pay large fines and take radio personalities off the air rather than see the FCC hold up or deny their licence renewals. If they had their license revoked, the federal govenment in the US would have sent enforcement agencies to ensure they no longer broadcast as well.

The difference is that in the US, it is mearly "moral" issues (some pretty skewed morals, if you ask me) that lead the government to levy fines and delay license renewals, while in Venezuela, it appears to be political issues in the guise of moral issues. But the arguement can be made that it is all political. It's a lot easier to distract your people with mock outrage and sanctions over Janet Jackson's tit or Howard Stern talking about lesbians with one hand, while the other hand is taking the country to war and killing our youth in the military with lies and false pretenses while lining the pockets for it's Haliburton and oil executive cronies.