Changed attitudes.......................

[Jimmydr]

This attitude is becoming more prevelent in Sosua. I cant help, but marvel at the stupidity though in this instance 1,000 is a bit under minimum puta wage for one who thinks shes attractive. What Ive run in to are chicks turning down a reasonable offer (1,500 ST or 2,000 TLN) in search of 1,000 to 1,500 more while standing in the casino at 3:00 am without a viable customer in sight. If you havent already this is reason to improve your spanish, expand your search area, and to use the chica network to your advantage. Just going as far as POP (non-casa) results in improved quality and cash savings. I've never been one to tell guys how much to spend, however, there are a bunch of guys (non-ISOC for the most part) that are turning simple putas into prima donnas with visions of grandaur. We will all be collectively better off is some guys just learn to say no.


A lesson learned..............

[Beads]

Ive noticed this for quite a while not just recently.

Chicas setting their price and not accepting less. They would rather go home empty handed.

Maybe they dont need the money that bad?

[Jimmydr]

Ive noticed this for quite a while not just recently.

Chicas setting their price and not accepting less. They would rather go home empty handed.

Maybe they dont need the money that bad?


Thats the one thing I love about Colombia. The Mansion chicas wanted 150,000 but they would go down to 50,000 a session if I had 3-4 sessions in a week. Something is better than nothing.


50,000 = $25.25

[remyman41]

Ive noticed this for quite a while not just recently.

Chicas setting their price and not accepting less. They would rather go home empty handed.

Maybe they dont need the money that bad?

Bullshit, they know that there will be a sucker if they are patient, Just like we think the night is ending better take my offer. They are thinking the same way. The night is ending gringo, you flew all this way to go home alone tonight.

[Beads]

yea times were rough for the chicas with VERY limited tourists in town but still plenty wouldnt budge. They had the Dominican mentality mentality of overcharging one customer to make up for all the lost business.

It didnt seem to be working well there were plenty of unhappy chicas all over town.

[Beads]

Bullshit, they know that there will be a sucker if they are patient, Just like we think the night is ending better take my offer. They are thinking the same way. The night is ending gringo, you flew all this way to go home alone tonight.

You 100% correct thats their line of thought. Too bad theirs so many chicas one will eventually give in. If you wait until last minute to find a chica then you deserve to go home alone. As it says at LaPassion...

He who hesitates masturbates.

[Jimmydr]

Bullshit, they know that there will be a sucker if they are patient, Just like we think the night is ending better take my offer. They are thinking the same way. The night is ending gringo, you flew all this way to go home alone tonight.


I slept alone 5 nights in July, BUT I took that money saved and used it on another trip. It will always get spent, one way or another.

[Jimmydr]

You 100% correct thats their line of thought. Too bad theirs so many chicas one will eventually give in. If you wait until last minute to find a chica then you deserve to go home alone. As it says at LaPassion...

He who hesitates masturbates.


Sometimes you really need a night off to reload.

[remyman41]

I slept alone 5 nights in July, BUT I took that money saved and used it on another trip. It will always get spent, one way or another.

My wingmen and I have been debating this subject. Paying 2000 to 2500 pesoes for a chica from midnight to 7 in the morning, when out of those 7 hours she may sleep for three of them. Maybe it is better to pay less for a short term at night, or spend that 2500 and keep the chica for 7 hours in the day(we are assured more fucking and less sleeping)

[Jimmydr]

My wingmen and I have been debating this subject. Paying 2000 to 2500 pesoes for a chica from midnight to 7 in the morning, when out of those 7 hours she may sleep for three of them. Maybe it is better to pay less for a short term at night, or spend that 2500 and keep the chica for 7 hours in the day(we are assured more fucking and less sleeping)


I think its better to get a 1,000 peso ST from 11-1AM then sleep.

[JD426]

As you get older the TLN becomes even less attractive.
1)- I can only go 2x max, the days of 3 pops are unfortunately long behind me.
2)- I like to sleep alone, no matter how secure, they can always get up and take something without you realizing it. I dont need that, and I cant sleep with one eye open
3)- if avoids the whole awkwards Morning thing, face it, this is not a GF who you want to have after breakfast sex with. They want to go, and you got the whole new day to look for more fresh meat. Also
I am on my vactions with MY BOYS. Some of them I have not seen in MONTHS. I want to enjoy our breakfast time . Where I can linger and chat about the days planned events. A chica at the table just makes it tougher.
this is just my .02

[ChicaSeeka]

As you get older the TLN becomes even less attractive.
1)- I can only go 2x max, the days of 3 pops are unfortunately long behind me.
2)- I like to sleep alone, no matter how secure, they can always get up and take something without you realizing it. I dont need that, and I cant sleep with one eye open
3)- if avoids the whole awkwards Morning thing, face it, this is not a GF who you want to have after breakfast sex with. They want to go, and you got the whole new day to look for more fresh meat. Also
I am on my vactions with MY BOYS. Some of them I have not seen in MONTHS. I want to enjoy our breakfast time . Where I can linger and chat about the days planned events. A chica at the table just makes it tougher.
this is just my .02

I usually eat the chica for breakfast and then send her off

[BCell]

Bullshit, they know that there will be a sucker if they are patient, Just like we think the night is ending better take my offer. They are thinking the same way. The night is ending gringo, you flew all this way to go home alone tonight.

also, "I got 5k pesos last week from some idiot, another will come around shortly, he always does..":icontd:

[Beads]

also, "I got 5k pesos last week from some idiot, another will come around shortly, he always does..":icontd:

Im sure plenty do. If you want a casa girl from Bohen or Crystals thats close to the price. Problem is I saw more and more chicas empty handed.

Having no money only lasts so long. Eventually your going to need to buy something. Chicas look at it the same way. Eventually this gringo is going to want a chica. I'm sure a lot of them discuss prices on a consistent basis to try and get as much as possible.

Problem is eventually they will need money and if they havent had a customer in a while the lure of a quick 1000RD will have to suffice for the moment.

The idea is finding that window of opportunity.

[The Sage]

One of my amigas, who is a former casa standout, told it to me this way. If you need 15,000 a week you can either work 3 times at 5,000 a pop or 6 times at 2,500. The less you work the easier it is on your body so this is the preferable alternative if you can accomplish it. She went on to explain that the problem was that you really do need the 15,000 and if too much of the week goes by without a customer you may have a problem. There was a time when only a star like my friend working in a casa could pull this off. Now you have women working the streets and discos of Sosua with less than 1/3 of her attractiveness adhering to this approach and apparently doing it successfully.

This has more to say about the type of guy that now descends on Sosua than anything else. Many of the chicas who work the strip and the discos today would not have even left the house as little as 3 years ago because they would have not made a peso. Its not that quality has gone down it's that the minimum expectations of the foreign horn dogs has dropped through the floor. While I was there this summer I found it hard to believe the number of unattractive women that had some fellow sending them WU. In this environment there's no wonder there are few standouts. They are literally run off by the feas protecting their turf. It has gotten so bad recently that I avoid both Classicos and Latinos. The casino is a comparatively better option, but the later I’m up the more likely a subpar performance because I’m tired or that I pass out with some stranger in my apartment..

Two things keep me coming back to the DR (Colombia is calling, but I’ve not yet given in). One, I’ve ventured outside of Sosua and without a doubt some of the finest women you ever want to see are on that fucking island and available. Two, I’ve learned to use the chica and to a lesser degree the chico network to my advantage. I can not emphasize how important this is. For every one chica from POP, STI, SDQ, etc,. that chooses to visit Sosua there are 5 or 6 or more that would come if they believed they had a guarantee of safety, a good time and pesos. Here's an example to illustrate this. My buddy get's introduced to a cutie by an amiga of his in POP. The next day we all get together for lunch. I ask her if she has any friends. She gets on the phone calls one of her buddies who’s photo she happens to have in her cell. The friend takes my number and calls an hour later. We meet. She's fresh, cute and sexy lacking the run down look of most of the Sosua workers. We agree on short time. To my delight she didn't even know how much to charge. I drop her off at her house 30 hours later at a total cost to me of 2,000 pesos and she was genuinely surprised that I paid her more than we had agreed upon.

To effectively exploit the chica network always remember "she is not your girlfriend". She is simply your rental for the evening or afternoon. She most likely has someone she cares about and it is not you. Even if you had the opportunity you’d not want a LDR and associated WU. So you should not be reluctant to ask her if she has friends or family she can introduce you to. One approach that works well is to ask her to find a friend for a happy hour. Now you have two chicas you can use to find others. Before you know it you have contacts in places all over the island and have escaped the bondage of the rat hole Sosua has become. To pull this off you need some conversational Spanish and you need to build a list of contacts. In other words get the digits and keep them to use for the next trip and the trip after that.. For me some of my best times have been had long after my first session with a particular chica. Also the more comfortable she is with you the more likely you will be recommended to even more friends and family and the bigger your network becomes. A word of caution, you do run the risk of digging so deep in the network that you find yourself with a “normal” chica and god knows what might happen then if her talents line up with your expectations maybe LDR/WU would then be in your future. .

[Hunter]

Now thats a damn good post. Thanks Sage. It makes perfect sense - 3 at 5K is what I would do also if I was in their shoes.. Can't blame them.

[tomgueguen]

Im sure plenty do. If you want a casa girl from Bohen or Crystals thats close to the price. Problem is I saw more and more chicas empty handed.

Having no money only lasts so long. Eventually your going to need to buy something. Chicas look at it the same way. Eventually this gringo is going to want a chica. I'm sure a lot of them discuss prices on a consistent basis to try and get as much as possible.

Problem is eventually they will need money and if they havent had a customer in a while the lure of a quick 1000RD will have to suffice for the moment.

The idea is finding that window of opportunity.

Can't be more true.

I remember this chica I had late at night.

When discussing she made the mistake to told me she had not the money to pay the bill for a night in her shitty hotel.

I said well, you'd better spend the end of the night with me and my friend for 500 pesos.

And she agreed for that price !!!

[weyland]

When I grow up I want to be like The Sage. The guy never posts anything which isn't fair, thoughtful, and distilled from his experience.

[greydread]

To effectively exploit the chica network always remember "she is not your girlfriend". So you should not be reluctant to ask her if she has friends or family she can introduce you to. A word of caution, you do run the risk of digging so deep in the network that you find yourself with a “normal” chica and god knows what might happen then if her talents line up with your expectations maybe LDR/WU would then be in your future. .
So true.

I was at first amazed when "amigas" offered up their primas and even their hermanas when they had other things to do and couldn't meet my time frame. I've been with as many "normal" Chicas there as putas and the putas keep me coming back because the "normal" Chicas have needs that I just can't satisfy in the long term through a long distance relationship. I know some World class putas there and the money I give them is way less then their service is worth. I tip well and they often break other engagements to come when I call but I will not pay for punani that I won't get immediately.

I'll use WU when they find a way to instantaneously wire transfer punani or head to me here in the States.

[The Sage]

Music to my ears "Be gentel with my _______ (amiga, sobrina, tia, prima, hermana) this is her first time doing something like this and she's a little nervous about it". This usually means you are going to have a really good time.

[sylvester]

This has more to say about the type of guy that now descends on Sosua than anything else. Many of the chicas who work the strip and the discos today would not have even left the house as little as 3 years ago because they would have not made a peso. Its not that quality has gone down it's that the minimum expectations of the foreign horn dogs has dropped through the floor.

. .

Well said ! The DR has become the next Tijuana. The place is saturated with over-paying gringos with more money than sense, traveling in packs and spoiling the puta market. I dont understand the pre-occupation of mongers treating these pre-pagos like girlfriends/wives. Bringing gifts, sending money, etc., what is the point in that ?

We all have or preferences but I dont see any value add in a TLN. Why pay a puta to sleep ? After the service has been rendered, pass her the pesos and show her the door.

He who has the gold makes the rules, NOT the putas ! There are better places to monger...........

[psriches]

One of my amigas, who is a former casa standout, told it to me this way. If you need 15,000 a week you can either work 3 times at 5,000 a pop or 6 times at 2,500. The less you work the easier it is on your body so this is the preferable alternative if you can accomplish it. She went on to explain that the problem was that you really do need the 15,000 and if too much of the week goes by without a customer you may have a problem. There was a time when only a star like my friend working in a casa could pull this off. Now you have women working the streets and discos of Sosua with less than 1/3 of her attractiveness adhering to this approach and apparently doing it successfully.

This has more to say about the type of guy that now descends on Sosua than anything else. Many of the chicas who work the strip and the discos today would not have even left the house as little as 3 years ago because they would have not made a peso. Its not that quality has gone down it's that the minimum expectations of the foreign horn dogs has dropped through the floor. While I was there this summer I found it hard to believe the number of unattractive women that had some fellow sending them WU. In this environment there's no wonder there are few standouts. They are literally run off by the feas protecting their turf. It has gotten so bad recently that I avoid both Classicos and Latinos. The casino is a comparatively better option, but the later I’m up the more likely a subpar performance because I’m tired or that I pass out with some stranger in my apartment..

Two things keep me coming back to the DR (Colombia is calling, but I’ve not yet given in). One, I’ve ventured outside of Sosua and without a doubt some of the finest women you ever want to see are on that fucking island and available. Two, I’ve learned to use the chica and to a lesser degree the chico network to my advantage. I can not emphasize how important this is. For every one chica from POP, STI, SDQ, etc,. that chooses to visit Sosua there are 5 or 6 or more that would come if they believed they had a guarantee of safety, a good time and pesos. Here's an example to illustrate this. My buddy get's introduced to a cutie by an amiga of his in POP. The next day we all get together for lunch. I ask her if she has any friends. She gets on the phone calls one of her buddies who’s photo she happens to have in her cell. The friend takes my number and calls an hour later. We meet. She's fresh, cute and sexy lacking the run down look of most of the Sosua workers. We agree on short time. To my delight she didn't even know how much to charge. I drop her off at her house 30 hours later at a total cost to me of 2,000 pesos and she was genuinely surprised that I paid her more than we had agreed upon.

To effectively exploit the chica network always remember "she is not your girlfriend". She is simply your rental for the evening or afternoon. She most likely has someone she cares about and it is not you. Even if you had the opportunity you’d not want a LDR and associated WU. So you should not be reluctant to ask her if she has friends or family she can introduce you to. One approach that works well is to ask her to find a friend for a happy hour. Now you have two chicas you can use to find others. Before you know it you have contacts in places all over the island and have escaped the bondage of the rat hole Sosua has become. To pull this off you need some conversational Spanish and you need to build a list of contacts. In other words get the digits and keep them to use for the next trip and the trip after that.. For me some of my best times have been had long after my first session with a particular chica. Also the more comfortable she is with you the more likely you will be recommended to even more friends and family and the bigger your network becomes. A word of caution, you do run the risk of digging so deep in the network that you find yourself with a “normal” chica and god knows what might happen then if her talents line up with your expectations maybe LDR/WU would then be in your future. .OUTSTANDING post!!!

However (like jimmy admits), 75% of the mongers here wouldn't be able to pull any of this off; and they're okay with that. Just another perspective..

[blacksultan]

Well said ! The DR has become the next Tijuana. The place is saturated with over-paying gringos with more money than cents, traveling in packs and spoiling the puta market. I dont understand the pre-occupation of mongers treating these pre-pagos like girlfriends/wives. Bringing gifts, sending money, etc., what is the point in that ?

We all have or preferences but I dont see any value add in a TLN. Why pay a puta to sleep ? After the service has been rendered, pass her the pesos and show her the door.

He who has the gold makes the rules, NOT the putas ! There are better places to monger...........


Fuck invasions!!!!!

[The Sage]

Regarding TLN, one of my favoritas complained because I offered to pay her what I give for ST if she stayed the night with me. I told her no matter that she stayed all night she knew and I knew that she was only giving up one pop while sleeping the majority of her time there in my comfortable bed. I suggested knowing she really liked sleeping in my bed that I get a 500 peso propina and thus pay her 500 pesos less. Seeing where this was going she quickly agreed to take her normal fee and that was that.

For those that don't know (dont be ashamed it took me a while to fully understand this) TLN to most chicas means you have sex with them multiple times. That's why they chose to charge more. Of course they're hoping you don't quite understand this so that they can work once then sleep the rest of the time at your place. It's important that you let them know that your expectation is at least two pops if not more and if she only plans on giving one then you're going to pay her ST. Please don't think this is playing hardball. You are simply insisting she comply with the local and thus her definition of TLN. For those of you who have no interest or desire in getting yours twice in 8 hours negotiate from that basis. You'll be surprised that most girls will understand where youre coming from and often agree to a lower price because of it.

[Inconego]

Regarding TLN, one of my favoritas complained because I offered to pay her what I give for ST if she stayed the night with me. I told her no matter that she stayed all night she knew and I knew that she was only giving up one pop while sleeping the majority of her time there in my comfortable bed. I suggested knowing she really liked sleeping in my bed that I get a 500 peso propina and thus pay her 500 pesos less. Seeing where this was going she quickly agreed to take her normal fee and that was that.

For those that don't know (dont be ashamed it took me a while to fully understand this) TLN to most chicas means you have sex with them multiple times. That's why they chose to charge more. Of course they're hoping you don't quite understand this so that they can work once then sleep the rest of the time at your place. It's important that you let them know that your expectation is at least two pops if not more and if she only plans on giving one then you're going to pay her ST. Please don't think this is playing hardball. You are simply insisting she comply with the local and thus her definition of TLN. For those of you who have no interest or desire in getting yours twice in 8 hours negotiate from that basis. You'll be surprised that most girls will understand where youre coming from and often agree to a lower price because of it.

There is no way a chic spends the night and doesn't fuck me at least 2 times, probably 3!

The more I go down, the less I like random chics spending the night. I actually short time chics, then call a regular at about 2am if i want someone to spend the night...

I've realized (like someone posted earlier) I don't trust a majority of the chics, and don't like sleeping with 1 eye open...

TLN for me is so I can blow her brains out for a night--period...

ST works however, because I usually fuck chics twice anyway during ST

...Incogneg

[Rubicon]

The Sage's advice and comments are spot on. What I came to realize is that many of these dames live together (whether they be sisters, cousins, friends, etc) and, more often than not, they are dependent on each other. If any one of them isn't able to satisfy you, for whatever reason, and make the money to pay the rent or buy some food, they are more than happy to turn you on to someone in the household who can.

[Jimmydr]

The Sage's advice and comments are spot on. What I came to realize is that many of these dames live together (whether they be sisters, cousins, friends, etc) and, more often than not, they are dependent on each other. If any one of them isn't able to satisfy you, for whatever reason, and make the money to pay the rent or buy some food, they are more than happy to turn you on to someone in the household who can.


The household doesn't carry deadbeats forever. If you don't pull your weight then you are OUT! The big money earners move on to living alone with their kid or kids.

[Jimbo44]

Most of the chicas do not have electricity after it goes out late at night if they do not have a generator. The ones that are visiting want to have a place to sleep anyway rather than their run down place they are shacking up in. My normal rates I am comfortable with is 1000 in the day, 1500 for the hr or 2. and for a starlet, I will pay 2000 for an all nighter. I have only 1 time spent 2500, and it was from 7 pm till 11 am, but she was the best I had yet down there!

[Jimmydr]

Most of the chicas do not have electricity after it goes out late at night if they do not have a generator. The ones that are visiting want to have a place to sleep anyway rather than their run down place they are shacking up in. My normal rates I am comfortable with is 1000 in the day, 1500 for the hr or 2. and for a starlet, I will pay 2000 for an all nighter. I have only 1 time spent 2500, and it was from 7 pm till 11 am, but she was the best I had yet down there!


A few years back, I had a chica that slept over for $20 a night, but if we fucked, I paid more.

[ErikS]

Regarding TLN, one of my favoritas complained because I offered to pay her what I give for ST if she stayed the night with me. I told her no matter that she stayed all night she knew and I knew that she was only giving up one pop while sleeping the majority of her time there in my comfortable bed. I suggested knowing she really liked sleeping in my bed that I get a 500 peso propina and thus pay her 500 pesos less. Seeing where this was going she quickly agreed to take her normal fee and that was that.

For those that don't know (dont be ashamed it took me a while to fully understand this) TLN to most chicas means you have sex with them multiple times. That's why they chose to charge more. Of course they're hoping you don't quite understand this so that they can work once then sleep the rest of the time at your place. It's important that you let them know that your expectation is at least two pops if not more and if she only plans on giving one then you're going to pay her ST. Please don't think this is playing hardball. You are simply insisting she comply with the local and thus her definition of TLN. For those of you who have no interest or desire in getting yours twice in 8 hours negotiate from that basis. You'll be surprised that most girls will understand where youre coming from and often agree to a lower price because of it.


There is a reason he is called "The Sage" (and it ain't because of the spice leaves!)..........Always excellent advice and observations. :clap2: :ilike:

And having the luxary of time on your side is a big plus also.

[weyland]

There is a reason he is called "The Sage" (and it ain't because of the spice leaves!) ... always excellent advice and observations. And having the luxury of time on your side is a big plus also.
Stop kissing ass, Stratton, that's my job!

When I grow up I want to be like The Sage. The guy never posts anything which isn't fair, thoughtful, and distilled from his experience.
And shouldn't it be "with the luxury of thyme by his side" ?

http://news.insearchofchicas.org/forum/imagehosting/656847278cd2a2cf6.jpg

[The Sage]

Eric, your absolutely right. Once you get pass the vacation adrenalin your perspective starts to sharpen. Either that or you will soon be crying about why you're spending so much money and not particularly enjoying your stay.

[El Capitan]

Most of the chicas do not have electricity after it goes out late at night if they do not have a generator. The ones that are visiting want to have a place to sleep anyway rather than their run down place they are shacking up in. My normal rates I am comfortable with is 1000 in the day, 1500 for the hr or 2. and for a starlet, I will pay 2000 for an all nighter. I have only 1 time spent 2500, and it was from 7 pm till 11 am, but she was the best I had yet down there!

I gotta agree with you there Jimbo...not to mention they get a hot shower and decent towels too! (PLUS a real bed)

Can't say I've ever had "hours of operation" attached although your numbers are more realistic than any "deals" I've heard of in the casas...

We need to work to keep prices down gentemens....offer'em a plate of french fries, half your Presidente Grande and $1500DRP for TLN...if she says "no", remind her she gets to eat the hotel breakfast too. (hence why I love Hotel Mercure)...you might be surprised.

If that ain't good enough, "there's always anothah standin' on th' coenah"

[eastcoastallstar]

I look at it like this, when I bust a nut, It's time for her to go home!!!!

.

[Aren]

I haven't had much luck with chica network, unfortunately they become incredibly possesive. Asking them for a friend or a contact could cause all sorts of problems, and I may loose a steady nice lay by even suggesting it.

I guess I'm doing something wrong that they become sticky like this - need to obsesrve the pros more....

I hate pimps, so guy's network is out of the question - just one of those things, can't help it.

As for waiting for a john to pay the 5K pesos, I think the other reason is they are waiting for a newbie, fresh off the boat so to speak. Once they know you have been around, they think, well, not only I can't get more bucks out of this experience guy, I also have to work hard ! Think about it, all of guys here are experienced mongers, they don't pay over the odds and they make damn sure they get their money's worth. That translates to hard work and more hours for chicas.

They know that, so they wait for a drunk, fresh meat gringo to hit him hard - none of you here is that gringo, hence you see the chica standing and waiting and not taking up your offer...

[Beads]

I haven't had much luck with chica network, unfortunately they become incredibly possesive. Asking them for a friend or a contact could cause all sorts of problems, and I may loose a steady nice lay by even suggesting it.

I guess I'm doing something wrong that they become sticky like this - need to obsesrve the pros more....

I hate pimps, so guy's network is out of the question - just one of those things, can't help it.

As for waiting for a john to pay the 5K pesos, I think the other reason is they are waiting for a newbie, fresh off the boat so to speak. Once they know you have been around, they think, well, not only I can't get more bucks out of this experience guy, I also have to work hard ! Think about it, all of guys here are experienced mongers, they don't pay over the odds and they make damn sure they get their money's worth. That translates to hard work and more hours for chicas.

They know that, so they wait for a drunk, fresh meat gringo to hit him hard - none of you here is that gringo, hence you see the chica standing and waiting and not taking up your offer...

Thats easy to fix. Don't allow them to become possessive. Always remember as long as you are paying them they work for you. Your the boss its your way or the highway. If she gets jealous tell her you don't like jealousy and she has to be changed in for a new chica.

In most cases its not that their jealous of other chicas its their jealous of you spending what they perceive as THERE money on other chicas.

If you feel a chica is being too possessive send her on her way for the night. Tell her your not happy with how shes acting and shes not getting paid to be this way. Walk away and go find another one for the night. She will probably change her ways the next day.(If you decide to hang out with her again).

[Hemp]

Eric, your absolutely right. Once you get pass the vacation adrenalin your perspective starts to sharpen. Either that or you will soon be crying about why you're spending so much money and not particularly enjoying your stay.

took 4 trips for me to come to this point...

great post.